How to Build Thriving Manufacturing-Rep Relationships, with RJ Evans

[00:00:03] So I always try to pick brains of manufacturers where they value reps, but they also, they

[00:00:08] understand like what makes it a successful partnership.

[00:00:12] So it's kind of interesting because I actually started as a manufacturer's rep.

[00:00:15] So I owned a rep agency up until I started Nationwide.

[00:00:18] So from 2005 until January of 22, I was full time with a manufacturer's rep business.

[00:00:26] So part of the interesting component to this is, is that I can feel both sides now.

[00:00:32] So I understand what it's like, especially when you ask the question about what does it

[00:00:38] take to really have the relationship and its communication.

[00:00:40] The problem is, is that most manufacturers want communication via report.

[00:00:45] And I'm personally, I disagree with reports.

[00:00:49] Reports can be a lot of people, good, bad or indifferent.

[00:00:51] A lot of times what ends up happening with the report is they, they're kind

[00:00:55] of funny reports, right?

[00:00:56] You got 20 calls that you have to make for a manufacturer.

[00:01:00] You get to the end of the month, you've got 19.

[00:01:03] All of a sudden there's 20.

[00:01:04] So it's, it's one of those things where I think a lot of times the reports are just

[00:01:10] something to appease a management team.

[00:01:13] When you say reports, you talk about like an activity call report?

[00:01:16] Yeah.

[00:01:16] So from our perspective, I believe that if a, if a manufacturer provides a product,

[00:01:24] and when I say product, I'm not talking about just the physical product that we

[00:01:27] provide because if there's a need, you've got that part of it.

[00:01:31] I'm talking about the overall product, the technical expertise, the customer

[00:01:35] service component to it.

[00:01:37] If you're giving your manufacturers reps the complete package, the

[00:01:43] manufacturer's reps come back and they want to do business with them.

[00:01:48] So it's, it's almost the vice versa of what I think a lot of times

[00:01:52] manufacturers are trying to accomplish.

[00:01:54] I had one of my very first rep agencies that I brought on.

[00:01:57] He came to me and he's like, listen, I don't travel with manufacturers.

[00:02:02] And I'm like, that's fine.

[00:02:03] As long as we're communicating, you know, I don't need to travel with you.

[00:02:06] I traveled with him over the last 16 months, 13 times.

[00:02:10] So this is a guy who told me, I don't want to travel with manufacturers.

[00:02:13] So to me, that is what tells you whether or not you're doing something

[00:02:17] right or not from a manufacturer's perspective, if the reps want you to

[00:02:21] come in and they're driving that business and they're driving you to

[00:02:25] come make calls with them and if they're driving your product, and if

[00:02:29] you're giving them again, the intangibles, not the physical product,

[00:02:33] but the intangibles that come along with it, I think it's a recipe for

[00:02:37] success.

[00:02:37] And that's coming from an old manufacturer's route.

[00:02:40] If I look at the successes that I had with the manufacturers, and I

[00:02:45] look at the failures that I had with manufacturers, those are the recipes

[00:02:48] that we kind of gravitated to.

[00:02:50] We gravitated to the ones that really wanted to truly help us grow our business.

[00:02:55] I agree with you.

[00:02:56] I mean, we've got a few lines that maybe are out of our top 10 from a

[00:03:00] revenue standpoint.

[00:03:01] We love selling it because it's a great product.

[00:03:04] If there's an issue and they jump all over it and they take care of it,

[00:03:08] they take care of the customer.

[00:03:09] We get paid on time and they're great folks to deal with.

[00:03:12] I mean, we have a great rapport, great partnership.

[00:03:15] And to me, some manufacturers look at it as, well, I want to be

[00:03:19] number one on your line card.

[00:03:20] Well, it's not about that all the time.

[00:03:22] I mean, to me, it's more about that relationship, but also beyond the

[00:03:27] product, like you're talking about the easy button, like it's just

[00:03:29] easy to do business with you from a reps perspective and a

[00:03:32] customer's perspective.

[00:03:33] And if you have that recipe, I think that's the winning

[00:03:36] combination in my opinion.

[00:03:37] I mean, look, we all got to make money.

[00:03:39] We got to pay the light bill, right?

[00:03:41] But at the same time, if you can make it easy on everybody, the reps

[00:03:44] are going to push it each and every day.

[00:03:46] I can promise you that just from a rep perspective.

[00:03:49] I completely agree.

[00:03:50] I was at a distributor yesterday in Virginia and one of the questions

[00:03:55] that I try to pose when we're making sales calls is how do we become

[00:03:58] your emotional favorite, right?

[00:04:00] And whether you're a customer distributor relationship or whether

[00:04:04] you're a manufacturer's rep, manufacturer's relationship, it's how

[00:04:08] do we become your emotional favorite?

[00:04:10] How do we become that customer or company that not because of

[00:04:14] numbers or anything else, but you gradually organically grow to be

[00:04:19] one of those top five favorites and you garner that emotional favorite.

[00:04:25] I think that's the fun part, right?

[00:04:28] I mean, that's what we're all trying to achieve is we're

[00:04:30] still in a relational business.

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:32] No, agreed.

[00:04:33] Agreed.

[00:04:34] What would you say you guys do to foster that?

[00:04:37] You said you mentioned a recipe, right?

[00:04:39] That you guys maybe follow to have a really good relationship with your reps.

[00:04:43] How would you, if there's other manufacturers kind of wondering,

[00:04:46] what's the secret sauce?

[00:04:47] How do I actually do this?

[00:04:48] What would you say?

[00:04:49] I say the number one thing is communication and that's communication

[00:04:53] from the top down, whether it's from ownership, whether it's from management.

[00:04:57] And when I say communication, I'm talking about the bad communication, right?

[00:05:01] Most people want in a manufacturer's world, you want to

[00:05:05] talk about all the good stuff.

[00:05:06] We just had a conversation this morning about, you know, when you're

[00:05:10] communicating about the bad things, you know, we did something wrong.

[00:05:13] We're all human, right?

[00:05:14] And the more interaction that you can have from a human perspective, I

[00:05:17] think the better off you are.

[00:05:19] And if you drill it down to that level, I think that's the key.

[00:05:23] I always liken it in, especially with customer service people.

[00:05:26] I use this analogy all the time.

[00:05:28] If you've got a car that you took in and your car is supposed

[00:05:32] to be done on a Wednesday and you show up on Wednesday and they say,

[00:05:35] oops, sorry, it's not going to be until the following Wednesday.

[00:05:39] And you've already got all of your stuff based upon you getting

[00:05:43] your car back on Wednesday.

[00:05:44] As a manufacturer, that's what we're doing every day.

[00:05:47] And when you let a customer down, it's not about letting them down and saying,

[00:05:52] Hey, on Tuesday, we had a hiccup.

[00:05:54] You know, we had this issue.

[00:05:55] We had this challenge.

[00:05:56] Can you pivot?

[00:05:57] Is this okay?

[00:05:58] It's having that conversation, not on Thursday when the product is supposed to

[00:06:03] show up and the product doesn't show up with the customers calling and saying,

[00:06:08] where's my stuff?

[00:06:09] That's to me, the secret sauce.

[00:06:12] It's that communication of being able to have the conversation preemptively

[00:06:15] on the good and the bad.

[00:06:17] You know, if you have a problem, if you have a manufacturing issue,

[00:06:20] you know, a lot of our stuff is, is handwork.

[00:06:23] And if you're having those conversations about challenges on the front end

[00:06:27] of something, I think at the end of the day, it's going to be a much

[00:06:31] better scenario for everybody.

[00:06:33] And again, those are the kinds of things that elevate

[00:06:36] you to that emotional favorite.

[00:06:37] Yeah.

[00:06:38] And I think too, I think it goes both ways too.

[00:06:40] I mean, challenging a lot of times we're in these sales meetings

[00:06:43] and the manufacturers are like, Hey, you know, what do we need to do better?

[00:06:46] Where are your pitfalls?

[00:06:47] Where are the, where are the, where are the gaps in what we do?

[00:06:50] But at the same time, it goes back to us as reps too.

[00:06:52] Like, what are we not doing that you need?

[00:06:55] Like what are our gaps?

[00:06:56] And I think that's just more of a, you take the emotion out of it, but

[00:07:00] you have a partnership business conversation about, all right, where,

[00:07:04] where do we collectively have the gaps and how do we fill it?

[00:07:07] I think that's an important to be challenged on both sides, but to your

[00:07:11] point you get in these meetings and sometimes people are afraid to

[00:07:14] say things on both sides, but if we're going to get better, you have to

[00:07:18] address it and you have to be able to talk about it, have a plan and

[00:07:21] then follow through with it.

[00:07:23] Yeah.

[00:07:23] It's interesting.

[00:07:24] Um, Curtis mentioned being on that panel and, you know, coming from the

[00:07:28] other side, you know, I said some things on that panel that, you know,

[00:07:31] manufacturers didn't necessarily care for it because again, I been in the

[00:07:36] shoes of a manufacturer's rep.

[00:07:38] And the reality of that is, is that the manufacturer's rep world is a very

[00:07:42] tough thing because it's you're only as good as what you were yesterday.

[00:07:45] And it doesn't matter.

[00:07:46] There's no consideration for some of the other intangible things that happen.

[00:07:50] You know, you have an employee that has a wife that has a health problem

[00:07:54] and they're going to be off the road for awhile.

[00:07:56] It's those kinds of things that can ultimately impact both of our

[00:07:59] businesses, but you have to be understanding that those kind of things happen.

[00:08:04] And if you're just looking at numbers on a call sheet to say, you've got to

[00:08:08] do so many calls again, all of that stuff kind of goes out the window.

[00:08:12] And I appreciate everything that a manufacturer's rep does

[00:08:17] coming from where I came from.

[00:08:18] Very frankly, this is much easier on this side of the fence.

[00:08:23] Where do you see it going?

[00:08:24] Do you find, I mean, you mentioned you're unique, right?

[00:08:27] Cause you can see both perspectives.

[00:08:28] You've lived in both shoes.

[00:08:30] A lot of manufacturers and reps maybe don't have that perspective.

[00:08:36] Where do you see like manufacturers and reps going in the next five years?

[00:08:41] You see either there are positive trends, like there's going to be more reps.

[00:08:44] There's, you know, people are learning how to work together better.

[00:08:48] Is there things we need to do to help that interface or

[00:08:53] yeah, let me see these go.

[00:08:54] Let me piggyback on that too.

[00:08:55] I guess we kind of talk about to Curtis's question about, Hey, where

[00:08:59] do you think that things are going in your industry from manufacturers and reps?

[00:09:02] Talk about also the direct sales force versus a rep and the, you know, pros

[00:09:07] and cons and you know why you have chosen to go with a rep model versus

[00:09:12] hiring direct folks.

[00:09:13] This is a unique topic.

[00:09:15] And what I would say to you is, and I'm going to preface it by answering

[00:09:20] the second question first, and why did we choose to go down this road?

[00:09:24] And hopefully that'll parlay into the first question.

[00:09:26] So we chose to go down this road.

[00:09:28] A I believe in the manufacturer's rep model coming from that world.

[00:09:32] I believe in that and I believe in that because when a manufacturer's rep

[00:09:36] goes out, I use the Walmart Meyer mentality, depending if you're in the

[00:09:41] South or the North and it's kind of that one stop shop thing, right?

[00:09:45] I think everybody is so taxed with time.

[00:09:50] Whether it's a maintenance manager, whether it's an engineer, everybody

[00:09:54] is so taxed with time.

[00:09:56] The reason that I chose to go down this road, it's a one call.

[00:10:00] So I've got manufacturers that can go in and converse about bearings,

[00:10:05] pulleys, idlers, conveyor belt, multiple products that touch a conveyor belt.

[00:10:13] So I want to make it as easy as possible for our, the reps that we have

[00:10:18] to be able to make less sales calls, but be more productive when they

[00:10:23] make those sales calls.

[00:10:24] We just want to give them a product that's going to fit their mix.

[00:10:28] So synergistically, we need to dial the synergistic part of this relationship

[00:10:32] in so that we're finding rep firms that are very synergistic.

[00:10:36] So I believe our industry, we have, we're a lot of gray hair guys.

[00:10:40] Like a lot of industries, the age of the sales force is getting older and

[00:10:44] older and, and I think the challenge that we're faced with in our, our

[00:10:49] industry, specifically in the conveyor belting business is the number of

[00:10:54] people that are retiring out that have the technical expertise.

[00:10:58] And if you think about trajectory of where automation has gone in, since

[00:11:03] I started in 1983, that has gone through the roof as far as the automation piece.

[00:11:09] So when you talk about automating, you're talking about eliminating head

[00:11:13] count on the manufacturing end.

[00:11:17] However, you're, you're adding another piece to that, which is who is going

[00:11:22] to service and who is going to take care of all the automation piece that

[00:11:25] now you've implemented into the industries.

[00:11:27] So you, you had three people on a conveyor or on a line that now

[00:11:31] you put a conveyor on, but now you've got this big long conveyor

[00:11:35] that you've got in our service.

[00:11:36] And so from our industry's perspective, I think it's becoming much tougher.

[00:11:41] If you talk to the people in our industry, they are struggling

[00:11:44] finding technical experts to be able to go into plants and talk

[00:11:48] intelligently about challenges, fixes, those kinds of things.

[00:11:53] And a lot of the expertise is now gone.

[00:11:57] We're kind of starting over in our industry as far as how are we

[00:12:01] going to continue going down this path of being technical experts?

[00:12:05] So there's an organization called NIBA, which is the National

[00:12:08] Industrial Belting Association.

[00:12:09] And they do a very, very good job as far as educating.

[00:12:12] But as you know, the education piece in a classroom is one thing.

[00:12:17] What manufacturers reps bring is the in-house or, or in-plant

[00:12:23] expertise that we're really kind of looking for.

[00:12:26] So you're taking the classroom and the expertise on the in-plant

[00:12:30] and you're trying to blend those together.

[00:12:32] And that's why I believe the manufacturer's rep model works so well.

[00:12:35] It's something that again, we're, we're fairly new into that from

[00:12:39] a manufacturer's perspective, since we've only been in an existence

[00:12:42] for about 18 months, but I will tell you that the reps that we've brought

[00:12:47] on that have zero technical expertise have been able to bring sales in.

[00:12:52] Because of their relationships and because of those relationships, when

[00:12:55] you start adding the relationship piece, it's kind of the soup.

[00:12:59] It really works well, especially when what we're doing.

[00:13:03] That's an interesting type for sure.

[00:13:05] No, it's, it's like I said, it's always good to hear it

[00:13:08] from your perspective.

[00:13:10] Cause in a lot of the things that, that we believe about the rep model and you've

[00:13:14] hit on a lot of it on why the rep model can be a success.

[00:13:18] Once again, you got to hire the right reps, right?

[00:13:19] I mean, and there's gotta be a matter of trust.

[00:13:22] And to your point is like back to the beginning of this is it's, you

[00:13:27] got to trust them to hire the right people, to have the consistency and

[00:13:31] longevity with the people that they bring to the table that are servicing

[00:13:35] our collective customers.

[00:13:37] And that's why these call reports.

[00:13:38] I mean, you can, you can do a call report and anybody can do a call report.

[00:13:41] But at the same time, there's gotta be a level of trust that both sides are

[00:13:46] going to do what they say they're going to do.

[00:13:47] Yep.

[00:13:48] And it's going to change, right?

[00:13:49] You know, one month you may have 20 calls, but the next month you

[00:13:52] may only have three, you can't put a number on that, right?

[00:13:56] Because those three calls could be absolutely phenomenal calls that

[00:14:00] generate how much revenue in my opinion, you just can't designate a

[00:14:04] number of sales calls to revenue.

[00:14:06] Right.

[00:14:07] And a lot of people would argue with that because I can make three sales

[00:14:10] calls and bring in X number of dollars in revenue where the next guy is going

[00:14:13] to make through 20 sales calls and bring in less revenue.

[00:14:16] I agree with you.

[00:14:17] I mean, if I look at all our sales guys and every week's different,

[00:14:20] but sometimes you're dealing with issues.

[00:14:22] Sometimes you're helping out with a warranty claim.

[00:14:25] I mean, it's, it's every week's different, but at the same time

[00:14:29] we're also seeing more and more of the manufacturers that we deal

[00:14:32] with that are asking for this data.

[00:14:34] So how do we, and that's kind of how we got to where we are with flow or

[00:14:39] software platform that we've created.

[00:14:41] How do we get them what they need without causing a lot of

[00:14:46] busy work for our sales guys?

[00:14:49] So that's the part that we're trying to figure out is that the folks

[00:14:52] that maybe have a different perspective, how do we give them what they need

[00:14:56] without us just really just coming up with something or causing a bunch

[00:15:00] of extra work where it's not meaningful.

[00:15:01] So we're tackling that issue with flow and we hope to have something

[00:15:05] that'll kind of answer everybody's questions and make it easy on everybody.

[00:15:08] So it's, it's a, it's a challenge when you've got different manufacturers

[00:15:12] that want different things.

[00:15:14] To your point there, what do you look for when you're bringing on reps?

[00:15:18] Um, you mentioned in your panel at PTA, you really like reps that

[00:15:22] challenge what you're doing right.

[00:15:25] And are willing to step out there and say, Hey, maybe we should do this.

[00:15:28] Maybe we should do that in the ideal world.

[00:15:30] What do you look forward to rep?

[00:15:31] And, um, you know, what would you, when you're bringing reps on?

[00:15:34] So again, it's, um, you know, for us, it's, I'd love to say that we're

[00:15:38] friends with every rep firm that we have and we're friends with many of

[00:15:42] them because I believe that if you're friends, you can have tougher

[00:15:47] conversations without feeling like you're going to get let go or

[00:15:51] there's going to be a ramification to, to something.

[00:15:54] And as a manufacturer, I think we need to preach and let people

[00:15:58] understand that we truly want feedback and that feedback can only make us better.

[00:16:04] And again, we don't call them Kaizans, but you know, having our reps come in

[00:16:09] and look at our facility and give us suggestions and, you know, make

[00:16:13] them a part of the team, right?

[00:16:15] Make them part of the family.

[00:16:17] And I think that's a critical aspect in moving forward with reps is

[00:16:22] to make them a part of the family.

[00:16:24] So many manufacturers reps, when you talk to them, they'll tell you,

[00:16:28] we just don't feel a part of the team.

[00:16:29] You know, we're alienated.

[00:16:31] We're not given the information that we require.

[00:16:33] They expect, you know, kind of the information to flow one way,

[00:16:37] but it doesn't come back and those kinds of scenarios.

[00:16:40] And I think that's what we're looking for is we're looking for

[00:16:43] those open conversations and open dialogue to try to make all of us better.

[00:16:47] Got it.

[00:16:47] And does that usually take, let's say you're bringing on a new rep firm or whatever.

[00:16:52] Do you usually take how long before, you know, like, oh yeah, like

[00:16:55] we've worked with them long enough.

[00:16:57] They're good.

[00:16:57] Or how fast can you tell?

[00:16:59] So again, I come at it from a unique perspective.

[00:17:02] I actually sat on the PTA board prior to doing this.

[00:17:05] And I actually had to resign from the PTA board in order

[00:17:08] to become a manufacturer.

[00:17:11] So I have been around PTA and I think the organizations that are out there,

[00:17:15] whether it's a plumbing organization, electrical organization, I think all of

[00:17:19] those organizations can play a extremely important role from a manufacturer's

[00:17:25] perspective.

[00:17:26] So like for us, we went last year as a manufacturer to PTA and part of what

[00:17:32] I did was is I did not want to interview anyone.

[00:17:35] I talked to people, I had conversations, but again, I had relationships with

[00:17:39] a lot of these guys.

[00:17:40] So we were, we were in a unique position.

[00:17:43] I think the problem that you run into is that there's a lot of

[00:17:46] organizations that go to the conferences and they go one time because they need

[00:17:52] to hire reps and then they don't come back.

[00:17:55] And that's the problem.

[00:17:57] If you're going to go down this road of this model, and I think as

[00:18:00] manufacturers that do believe in the rep model, we need to be much more

[00:18:04] vocal as much as we possibly can in getting people to understand this isn't,

[00:18:09] you know, you do it one time and you're kind of done and over with.

[00:18:12] You have to develop relationships.

[00:18:14] And just from my perspective, again, I have friends that I've become friends

[00:18:18] with over the years through PTA and a lot of them want to rep our product.

[00:18:23] And I'm going to have to have difficult conversations with some of my friends to

[00:18:27] say, no, we're going to go in this direction versus this direction, but

[00:18:31] those aren't going to be emails.

[00:18:32] Those are going to be conversations that, you know, we believe from a

[00:18:36] business perspective that this is a better fit for us.

[00:18:39] But I think that people who want to use this model have to get active within

[00:18:44] every organization that's out there.

[00:18:47] If you're in the electrical, you get active in the electrical piece and

[00:18:50] you go, PTA has the marketing committees and the different committees

[00:18:55] and manufacturers have to be involved in those.

[00:18:57] They have to get active in those to understand if I'm sitting in a

[00:19:01] committee and there's 10 different rep firms that are around that table.

[00:19:06] You're going to understand the ones that are going to be who you want to partner with.

[00:19:10] So I think part of that is the interaction that all manufacturers should have within

[00:19:15] the organizations that are out there.

[00:19:17] And if they're not taking advantage of those, I think it's a, they're

[00:19:20] doing a disservice on both sides.

[00:19:22] Right?

[00:19:22] I think manufacturers reps need to be in there and I think they need to

[00:19:26] be part of that.

[00:19:27] And I also think if you're a manufacturer's rep, you don't show up

[00:19:30] to these events just when you need lines.

[00:19:32] If you're a manufacturer, you don't show up to them just because you need reps.

[00:19:37] That's not a way to develop a relationship.

[00:19:39] So I think in our case we have relationships with a lot of the

[00:19:43] people that we know we want to do business with and we're in a pretty

[00:19:45] good unique position because we're kind of able to pick and choose the ones

[00:19:49] that I feel kind of fit our culture the best.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:51] I think that's an important piece.

[00:19:53] It is a culture fit, whether I'm hiring somebody for my company or

[00:19:58] we're negotiating or talking to a manufacturer, there's got to be that

[00:20:01] fit from a culture standpoint.

[00:20:04] Cause there's been times that we've had relationships where we've had a

[00:20:07] successful relationship financially with a manufacturer, but it was always,

[00:20:12] it was adversarial.

[00:20:14] It's like, we're just not fitting here.

[00:20:16] And at the end of the day, even though they're getting orders and

[00:20:19] we're making commissions, nobody was really happy.

[00:20:21] That's not good for a long-term true partnership.

[00:20:24] So it culture is a big part of it.

[00:20:26] I think you hit the nail on the head.

[00:20:28] And I like what you're saying about the log game, right?

[00:20:30] You're showing up to these meetings long before we got to have more reps, right?

[00:20:35] You're kind of cultivating farming, you know, you can grow in the crops

[00:20:38] before you need to harvest.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:40] So we're coming up on time, maybe just one last question.

[00:20:44] And that would be since you mentioned PTR and things like if

[00:20:47] you're maybe a new manufacturer, you're thinking about using reps for your

[00:20:52] business and you're going to the PTR, maybe let's say PTR for the first time.

[00:20:56] How do you recommend they manage the event?

[00:21:00] Right.

[00:21:00] What's the best thing they could do?

[00:21:01] So I know when I first went, you do the first timers.

[00:21:04] We have a manufacturer's councils.

[00:21:07] There's rep councils, there's manufacturers councils and you get active.

[00:21:10] You know, you're going to get what you put into it.

[00:21:13] Right.

[00:21:13] And as a first timer and obviously there's introverts, there's extroverts.

[00:21:18] And so, you know, introverted people have a little bit tougher time

[00:21:22] on trying to navigate some of that, but you have to step out of that.

[00:21:25] If you want to have a successful business, you have to step out of

[00:21:28] that introverted comfort zone and say, I'm going to get active with this.

[00:21:31] I'm going to understand kind of what this is.

[00:21:35] And I will tell you just from personal experience, both from a rep side

[00:21:39] and a manufacturer side, the organizations will completely change your business.

[00:21:44] And it changed our rep business when we first joined, we soloed

[00:21:48] for the first six years.

[00:21:50] And then when we joined PTR, our rep firm blew up.

[00:21:53] So it helped that.

[00:21:55] And now as a manufacturer, the relationships that I've been able to

[00:21:58] gain through both sides of this fence.

[00:22:01] I feel like, you know, being active in PTR or any of the other organizations

[00:22:06] is just something that is, I'm very passionate about because I believe

[00:22:09] that it, you have to understand if you're going to go to the direct

[00:22:12] model, then you do what you do to do the direct model.

[00:22:15] But if you're going to go down the road of being a manufacturers rep

[00:22:18] and that's what you want to do.

[00:22:20] You have to get active in these organizations to be able to tie yourself

[00:22:25] to organizations that believe and fit the way that your manufacturing

[00:22:30] business believes in fits.

[00:22:31] And the only way that you can do that is by kind of stepping out of that

[00:22:35] comfort zone and getting on the, on the panels, getting on the boards

[00:22:39] and all of those things to be able to kind of help that.

[00:22:42] So that's great.

[00:22:43] Thank you, RJ.

[00:22:44] These are great insights.

[00:22:45] I think a lot of folks listening to this, if they're looking at their

[00:22:47] rep model, you've given them a lot of stuff to think about and to act on.

[00:22:51] So we really appreciate your time and, and your insights.

[00:22:54] You've been doing this for, for a long time.

[00:22:56] And so we appreciate your perspectives.

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:58] Appreciate the opportunity.